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User talk:Franken Kesey/Septimus (3.5e Optimized Character Build)
=Older Comments= before revamp Optimized? To check if the build is optimized or not, could you post attacks, damage, and DPR of often-used attack sequences at level 20? (Same way I did in other builds.) --Ghostwheel 07:52, March 29, 2010 (UTC) :Did this, rudiment-ally, in highlights - but will defiantly organise. Any thoughts on how to fix the first level formatting? --Franken Kesey 08:02, March 29, 2010 (UTC) :: Take a look at other examples, copy-paste or remove the differences. --Ghostwheel 08:10, March 29, 2010 (UTC) :::Check out the new and improved Highlights/ Tactics. If doing 239dmg 25% of the time, and 185 average, is not optimised - then what is? Other optimised builds do: Basic Blaster Wilder (3.5e Optimized Build) 80, Basic Combat Rogue Guide (3.5e Optimized Character Build) 73.5, Mindspider Infiltrator (3.5e Optimized Character Build) 85 on average. --Franken Kesey 22:57, March 29, 2010 (UTC) ::::Actually, 185 damage for a 20 level is somewhat meager, given that the Knightly Charger deals 800+ with the same amount of levels. Not to mention the fact that your builds are using homebrew material, most of which follows the Rogue Balance Point according to this Wiki (which essentially means it it already reasonably optimized). The Mindspider Infiltrator deals 88 damage per attack, not on average. Assuming all attacks hit, it deals 264 damage. The Basic Combat Rogue also deals 77 damage per attack (460 average against AC 40 on a full attack, which is more than 25% of the time). And while the Basic Blaster Wilder does deal 80-ish damage, it does so in nine levels, not in 20. So those comparisons aren't really valid. ::::A few more things. First, it would be much more helpful to list the BAB as it accumulates for the whole build, not for each component class in it. Having it as is is unnecessarily confusing and unclear. Stating the ability scores in the columns also seems quite unnecessary; I think it would be more beneficial to only post the ability scores in the highlights section(so not for every level). Lastly, I don't think you need all the copied/pasted class features from the component classes. If anyone wants to go look up the classes, that's what the links are for (and the class pages, themselves, for that matter). You don't need to waste space by including all that pasted text (which you do in all your builds, not just this one). I would also urge you to delete those parts in your other builds as well. - TG Cid 00:22, March 30, 2010 (UTC) :::::and at least 1 epic feat is slipped in there. sorry, you cant take that at 15th level. also still need a 13 str for power attack --NameViolation 00:55, March 30, 2010 (UTC) :::::::I wanted to make sure that everything else was working out before working BAB - to insure that I didn't have to do it multiple times. But will do when all the rest is finished. Removed most class features in this build. Both builds retained commonly refereed to features. :::::::Name, good to see you again. I have changed the race on multiple times, and at some point lost my power attack prerequisite - will revamp. Any ideas for replacing Sneak Attack of Opportunity? --Franken Kesey 01:13, March 30, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::telling blow (from phb2). i forget the pre reqs, but it lets you get Sneak Attack damage on crits, is my first thought for feat replacement--NameViolation 01:25, March 30, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::: ...So many problems with the current build that I'm not even going to start giving you a breakdown of its actual DPR. --Ghostwheel 07:35, March 30, 2010 (UTC) Damage Per Round Okay, let's look at what we've actually got here. You've got 40 pb going on over there, so we'll remove all bonus to mental ability scores for the moment (leaves us with 6 charisma, but meh). The first big problem is that you've got no good way of denying enemies their dex to AC every round, and most of your table it messed up or doesn't make sense (seriously, fix it). The only thing that comes to mind is Invisibility, and that takes a round to cast. So Dex is equal to 18 (base) + 4 (racial) + 6 (enhancement) + 5 (Tome) + 5 (Level up) = 38 (+14) Attack bonus is 14 (Dex) + 18 (BAB) + 2 (Slayer) + 5 (Variant Weapon Focus) = +39/+34/+29/+24 Damage: 2d6+2 (Slayer sword) x3 (Slay) + 9d6 (Death Attack) = 15d6+6 or 58.5 on average. This means that vs. AC 40, you're doing on average in a single round 58.5 + (58.5 * 15/20) + (58.5 * 10/20) + (58.5 * 5/20) = 58.5 + 43.875 + 29.25 + 14.625 = 146.25 DPR. And then we divide that by three, since you need to study them for a full round, and it takes a standard action to activate invisibility, for a total DPR of 48.75 vs. AC 40. Which is really completely and horrendously terrible. What's worse is that you're using wizard-level abilities, and doing worse damage than a core rogue with basic equipment. In short, from an objective perspective, this build sucks and isn't optimized in the least. --Ghostwheel 23:24, March 30, 2010 (UTC) :To back up what he said, the mistake you made in calculating your damage lies in assuming that you will deal maximum damage (never possible with this kind of martially-based build), hit with every attack every round (as good as impossible, odds-wise given your character's attack bonus), a not calculate for the "per round" part, which kind of shafts you since you need two rounds to prepare your assault (even if you run around invisible, it still takes one round of observation after you locate the target, so you're pretty much screwed on that one). Those are all impossible assumptions, for the reasons outlined above, and because of that it becomes necessary to factor in the character's attack bonus (after the second attack, hitting successfully becomes much more difficult, so that drops your damage output by half or something similar and the actual "average" damage (i.e. the average of the lowest and highest values of the die multiplied by the number of dice). That really makes a difference, and I cannot stress the word 'really' enough. - TG Cid 23:37, March 30, 2010 (UTC) ---- ---- =Newer Comments= after revamp Problems? What needs to be done before it is appropriate for de-sandboxing? --Franken Kesey 21:46, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Optimized How is an average DPR of ca. 3000 not optimised? --Franken Kesey 21:46, April 27, 2010 (UTC) :If this build actually had a DPR of over 3000, it could be considered optimized. The only problem is that it falls far short of that. The crux of the problem is the method with which you have calculated your supposed DPR, which I have already related above but I will expand upon. :First off DPR means damage per round, which means that even if you did deal 3000 damage in one round with this build that figure could not be your DPR because you have to study for at least one round to deal that damage, meaning that your actual damage per round is half of your proposed value. Contrary to its name, a surprise round is not in fact an actual round; it only gives you an extra standard action. Thus, you cannot study your opponent without taking another round to do so. :Some other issues include the increased critical multiplier provided by the slayer, which only applies when you make that particular special attack as a standard action, which means that it doesn't work with your full attack auto-criticals. More importantly, Slayer isn't even in your class progression anymore (it would help to keep all the sections up to date since we keep repeatedly using them to calculate the actual DPR of these things). Also, Power Critical gives you a +4 bonus to your confirmation rolls for a critical, not to your critical threat range (trust me, I made the same mistake a long time back), so it does not actually increase your threat range. :Feat Purchasing also mandates that you meet all the prerequisites for bonus feats taken, so you really can't take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting at level 20 (as an Epic Feat, it requires that you have the equivalent of at least 21 character levels before you can take it). :Plus, reiterating what I have said on previous critques, you can't assume that all your attacks are going to hit, even if your attack bonus exceeds +40. You can always miss on a natural 1 unless some class feature prevents it, which this build does not have. As for this build's attack bonus, you shouldn't add 10 to your attack bonus just because it's the average roll, since your roll cannot be a fixed number, when calculating DPR. Speed of Thought as written should also only give you a +9 bonus to those attacks, not +18 (Int bonus = Int modifier). As such, I have your attack bonus as: :+17 (BAB), +11 (Dex), +4 (VWF), +1 (GWF), +9 (Speed of Thought), +4 (heart beat, which I'm still convinced is questionable but I will include anyway), -2 (TWF), -1 (trait) = +42 :So in the end your attack sequence looks like this: :Main: +42/+42/+37/+32/+27 :Off: +40/+40/+35 :That means you have four attacks which are solid hits, and the rest are suspect to say the least. :Now for damage per attack: 1d6+5 (base) +9 (Speed of Thought) + 3 (enhancement) 1d4 (psychokinetic) = 23 x4 = 92 +6d6 (Death Attack) = 113 :That's pretty solid, considering you get 4 attacks that are likely to hit. Now to add up the full damage for your one round (I'm not including AoO's, since those are conditional and beyond your control). :So to get DPR you multiply the attack damage "by the number of attacks on which you would hit the target AC on an attack roll, divided by twenty": :113 x 19/20 = 107.35 x4 = 429.4 :113 x 18/20 = 101.7 :113 x 14/20 = 79.1 :113 x 13/20 = 73.45 :113 x 8/20 = 45.2 :All added up that gives you 728.85 damage which, when divided by 2 because of the round necessary for preparation, gives you a total of 364.425 DPR. Not bad, but far short of your lofty estimate of 3000, especially given the high amount of Rogue/Wizard-level material present here. :My math probably has some errors in it, but it doesn't exactly help when you don't show very much math to prove your own calculations. That might shut us doubters up, at least for a while. - TG Cid 00:07, April 28, 2010 (UTC) ::Will fix routine, are there any benifits with his surprise attack? shuld he level in something else other than ninja (lossing surprise, but gaining somthing else)? Does sneak attack seem like a better feature than Death Attack? ::Have had the calculations in hidden text, just to keep it organised - should I reveal all of it? Slayer was in name only, was not a part of calculations. Will fix both feats. ::If you do not add 10 from rolls, then how do you calculate rolls? The roll is a variable, a uncontrolled variable, but still a variable - shouldn't it be accounted for. ::As noted in the "Side Notes" section only 2 things on this page are wizard level (a bit of an accomplishment, noting how much stuff in this website is); but you are correct, there is a large amount of Rogue-level stuff - finding monk level stuff is close to impossible. I could not find enough synergysing fighter level material - but am always open to alternatives. Thanks for the criticism --Franken Kesey 01:10, April 28, 2010 (UTC) :::A good way to use the surprise round would be to ensure that the opponent is somehow denied their Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, whether that be making yourself invisible or a similar standard action. It could actually save you from having to prepare for another round, since for Death Attack to work the opponent has to be denied their Dexterity bonus on the turn you study them and the turn you attack. As for Sneak Attack vs. Death Attack, I would say that is up to you. You're basically trading damage for the round it takes to prepare a death attack. :::I think it would help to show your calculations so others can see where your numbers are coming from, but I think you should make sure to use averages and not maximums for damage rolls, as doing so can really skew your DPR. The attack bonus is also factored in with the fractions given in my damage numbers. The 19/20, for example, means that with that attack bonus (in this case, +39 or higher) you can hit on anything that's not a natural 1 (which is always excluded because it is an auto-miss). That is your probability of hitting on that roll and averages all of your potential rolls into one number. :::Lastly, I am in no way advocating that you should seek out Monk-level material. I think Monk-level sucks, and since as you pointed out there is very little Monk-level material on this Wiki, I would gather that most users would agree. I was simply trying to make the point that Rogue-level material is generally supposed to be pre-optimized to the point where an optimization wouldn't be far and away superior to the basic components individually. More or less, I was questioning the need for an optimized character build using this level of material, since most of it is powerful enough to be competitive all on its own. - TG Cid 02:04, April 28, 2010 (UTC)